47 replies to this topic

[fixitsan]

The need to meet emissions regulations has forced engine manufacturers to do their best to reduce fuel consumption. During an overrun condition, where you're traveling at perhaps 5000rpm and decide to slow down by closing the throttle, in most cases the ECU stops pulsing the fuel injectors. This is probably true for all fuel injected bikes, cars and vans made in the last 15 years or so.

 

The transition between pulsing and not pulsing can sometimes feel harsh when riding smoothly. My negative experience has been when riding around a couple of roundabouts, downhill, I back off the throttle a little to control the speed, but the fuel-cut process begins and I then I slow down more than I expected, unsettling the bike a little.

 

When riding using all the beans it's not so much of a problem, but if you're trying to take it easy with a pillion on board it makes the bike feel more nervous. Different manufacturers try to deal with it in different ways but ultimately a hard cut-off in fuel delivery is reached quickly, and I think some reports of modern bikes feeling more 'jerky', than carburetted bikes, can be due to the implementation of this system.

 

The system I'm working on aims to create phantom injection pulses during this fuel-cut period.in an attempt to reduce the negative effects and harshness of fuel-cut, by trying to provide a more carburetted feel !

 

Interfacing to the injectors is easy, one side of the injector has a constant 12V supply, and to force it to inject fuel the ECU pulls the other side of the injector coil to ground briefly

 

A master timing signal is required. Initially I wanted to use one of the phases from the alternator stator, which has 6 AC sinewaves per crank revolution, but that was electrically too noisy to be reliable. The crank position hall effect sensor was tested, which  a very clean AC pulsed signal once per crank revolution, but requires rectification and filtering. So I moved to using the Cam sensor, which is also called the 'cylinder identification' sensor by Yamaha. The neat thing here is the output from this sensor works on 5V logic level and outputs 1 small pulse per cam revolution, which equates to 2 crank revolutions

 

The two signals from the injectors are taken from the ECU switched side, and all 3 signals connect to a PIC microcontroller, through fusible resistors and optical isolators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

•  InjectCircuit.jpg   196.78KB   1 downloads

[fixitsan]

This short video shows the ECU injector pulses on the top yellow trace, and the blue pulses on the lower trace are my  computed ones.

Because the gearbox is in neutral there is no fuel cutting (yellow pulses are always present), because fuel cutting only happens when in gear with the wheels turning.

 

It shows I managed to get good alignment of when a pulse should happen, through computation , during deceleration.

 

The trickiest part here is that as engine revs rise the injectors start firing sooner and earlier in the crank rotation cycle

 

https://www.youtube....rts/KrCO2ASf2GQ

Edited by fixitsan, 25 September 2024 - 12:02 pm.

[fixitsan]

This is the spreadsheet I produced to help me derive the formulas needed to calculate when an injector should be fired.

 

I use one of the microcontroller's inbuilt timers to create timed pulses every few hundred microseconds. The cam pulse is the reference mark when the timer is started and stopped, the number of pulses is read, and the timer is restarted again from zero to capture the next series of timer pulses through one cam rotation.

As the cam increases RPMs the number of timer pulses are fewer. And conversely at lower revs it takes longer for a cam rotation so there are a greater number of timer pulse cycles per RPM of the engine.

 

InjA refers to injector A, and InjB is injector B

 

For each injector threre are two columns, one is for the measured delay (number of timer pulses elapsed) from the start of a cam pulse to the start of the injector firing. The second column for each injector is the calculated time period which is used by the software to delay before firing the phantom pulses

 

The numbers in both columns need to be within about 50 timer cycles of one another to get good accuracy and therefore smooth running. There is some scope in the software to tighten this up further but for now it seems to be good enough to go ahead and do some real world testing on the road.

 

 

EDIT, Column D, "InjB", should read InjA.

 

 

 InjectSpread.jpg   134.23KB   0 downloads

Edited by fixitsan, 25 September 2024 - 01:49 pm.

[LAURENCEAUX]

Wow -you're talking way over my head.

Edited by LAURENCEAUX, 25 September 2024 - 02:18 pm.

[fixitsan]

Wow -you're talking way over my head.

 

Ha, sorry.

 

I know a few other forum members have experience with microcontrollers so I threw it all in there.

 

Basically, it's a 'carb emulator'

[Boosh]

This sounds a fascinating project!

 

Could you achieve the same end result by shorting the neutral switch wire to ground (after it has been detached from the neutral switch itself, on the end of the gear selector drum, but that doesn't matter where).

 

Then run a new neutral switch-connected-wire; attached to the neutral light bulb on the dash (the bulb being previously disconnected from the 'factory' circuit) and run down the bike to the now-disconnected gearbox switch?

 

My suggestion is not an elegant 'technical' solution like yours, it's a bit 'ghetto' by comparison! But I wonder if it would work?

 

On my bike, I did once mention on here, I have fitted an extra brass contact in the gear selector drum, bridged to the existing neutral contact, so that 6th gear causes the neutral light to operate as a sixth gear indicator too. I never knew that I might be inhibiting the fuel cut off in that gear. It works well as an indicator, but a bit too bright at night for comfort.

 

I think in the car world, the advent of 'fuel cutoff on the overrun' was claimed to achieve overall fuel savings of around 5%, FWIW. On a bike? I don't know. I would trade that for the smoother ride!

 

The low speed jerkiness is the worst feature of my bike. I'm interested in how this turns out!

 

P.S. I appreciate my bike, as it is, could be accidently started with the gearbox in sixth, as opposed to only when in neutral. That's never come close to being a problem so far.

Edited by Boosh, 25 September 2024 - 05:24 pm.

[Bjørge]

You're on a high level, Fixitsan! I'm working on a solution to trick my Toyota diesel into thinking the dpf is sound and no need to cut power😎
A solution made up from 1 silisium diode, 1 germanium diode and 3 resistors...
Good luck!

[dapleb]

You are trying to emulate carbs.....cous they is better than injection.

This is why no one tries to emulate injection. ◉⁠‿⁠◉

[Bjørge]

You are trying to emulate carbs.....cous they is better than injection.

This is why no one tries to emulate injection. ◉⁠‿⁠◉

My Mk1 was out of business for 2 years because of carbs...I'll take injection surge any day😎

[fixitsan]

This sounds a fascinating project!

 

Could you achieve the same end result by shorting the neutral switch wire to ground (after it has been detached from the neutral switch itself, on the end of the gear selector drum, but that doesn't matter where).

 

Then run a new neutral switch-connected-wire; attached to the neutral light bulb on the dash (the bulb being previously disconnected from the 'factory' circuit) and run down the bike to the now-disconnected gearbox switch?

 

My suggestion is not an elegant 'technical' solution like yours, it's a bit 'ghetto' by comparison! But I wonder if it would work?

 

On my bike, I did once mention on here, I have fitted an extra brass contact in the gear selector drum, bridged to the existing neutral contact, so that 6th gear causes the neutral light to operate as a sixth gear indicator too. I never knew that I might be inhibiting the fuel cut off in that gear. It works well as an indicator, but a bit too bright at night for comfort.

 

I think in the car world, the advent of 'fuel cutoff on the overrun' was claimed to achieve overall fuel savings of around 5%, FWIW. On a bike? I don't know. I would trade that for the smoother ride!

 

The low speed jerkiness is the worst feature of my bike. I'm interested in how this turns out!

 

P.S. I appreciate my bike, as it is, could be accidently started with the gearbox in sixth, as opposed to only when in neutral. That's never come close to being a problem so far.

 

 

Wow, that's an elegantly simple approach, I might have thought along those lines myself, given another year or two. !

 

It could be taken in a different direction, by letting the neutral switch work as intended while stationary, but as soon as output shaft pulses/wheel pulses are detected , switch a relay over to ground it out, with the downside of it appearing to be in neutral when moving, but a two pole relay could also turn off the lamp.

 

I'm definitely going to check this one out, , it would be great if fuel cut was controlled just by the neutral switch !

You're on a high level, Fixitsan! I'm working on a solution to trick my Toyota diesel into thinking the dpf is sound and no need to cut power
A solution made up from 1 silisium diode, 1 germanium diode and 3 resistors...
Good luck!

 

I had DPF problem's with my Alfa 159. Instead of coring it out I realised you only needed to attack the rear of the filter to scrape it away a couple of millimetres because it's a wall-flow type of filter.

If it regenerated it would throw an error and make endless smoke, so I made an OBD dongle which counted the miles and when it reached 480 miles (20 miles short of the first regen) the dongle sent a code which made the ECU reset the DPF regen counter.

 

 

The lengths manufacturers have to go to just  to give hobbyists something to do is amazing !

[fixitsan]

This sounds a fascinating project!

 

Could you achieve the same end result by shorting the neutral switch wire to ground (after it has been detached from the neutral switch itself, on the end of the gear selector drum, but that doesn't matter where).

 

 

Three beers at least owed to you.

 

It works !

 

Fuel cut is active at all times when the back wheel is turning, but, when the neutral switch wire is grounded it doesn't happen at all.

 

The neutral light is always on though

 

I won't get a chance to ride the bike with a grounded neutral wire till i come back at the weekend, but it's obviously the better solution.

 

Just need to add a switch on the bars to activate it !

 

 

Thats saved me hours of work ! (But I wonder if there are any other performance limits or fuel limits which are active when in neutral ? Testing will tell)

 

 

Looking at the wiring diagram, in order to get a functional neutral lamp when stationary just needs a resistor and a relay to be added behind the dashboard to bypass the lamp, and some sort of intelligence to check for zero sprocket rpm.. Although the downside is that finding neutral while coasting to a stop would be impossible, but I dont think I ever do that anyway.

 

I'll try this out after the weekend and see if it feels much different when riding, when fuel cut is defeated

Edited by fixitsan, 25 September 2024 - 09:02 pm.

[fixitsan]

You are trying to emulate carbs.....cous they is better than injection.

This is why no one tries to emulate injection. ◉⁠‿⁠◉

 

It's true, but I watched someone's video this week about why people don't buy older bikes and 'having carbs' is now one of the main reasons. There's becoming a shortage of people with enough skills to work on them apparently.

 

I keep seeing some great bikes with carbs selling for very little money, cheap FJR's and Honda Blackbirds etc.

 

One benefit to injection over carbs, is when climbing to high altitudes, but it's never bothered me personally, I guess because it only relates to vehicles with manifold pressure sensors, and the TDM hasn't got one !

[fixitsan]

I'm thinking of cutting the wires at the two red crosses, and switching between the neutral lamp in the red box, and a resistor with the same resistance as the lamp to keep the related circuits active while extinguishing the neutral lamp, controlled by some logic based on the front sprocket speed sensor.

 

Does anyone with an ABS bike know if the front sprocket speed sensor is present on their bike too, or is the bikes speed read from the wheel ABS disks instead ?

 

 WIRING_02c.JPG   171.1KB   0 downloads

 

 

IMAGE SOURCE http://cvieth.bplace.../WIRING_02c.JPG

 

 

EDIT, I think I misread the diagram , and only need to open the circuit at the top red cross to extinguish the neutral lamp safely

Edited by fixitsan, 25 September 2024 - 09:42 pm.

[fixitsan]

If I'm lucky, I think this one wire in the yellow box is how the ECU knows it's in neutral. Its blue/white in colour.

 

All the other functions associated with the neutral switch are hardwired at 12V, and I suspect the blue/white wire exists just to let the ECU knows not to add engine running restrictions like fuel cutting. Not sure if torque limits are included in the same way.

 

It makes sense that the engine would be allowed to run freely when in neutral for the sakes of service staff who might be trying to find an engine running problem

 

So this blue/white wire is the one I'll remove from the ECU plug first to see what the effects are.

 

 WIRING_02c2.jpg   185.04KB   0 downloads

[steve27bha]

Attached is a 2005 ABS diagram in a Word document.

 TDM900A wiring 2005.doc   437.5KB   6 downloads

 

Items 41 & 42 are the front / rear wheel sensors - at bottom right. No mention of a sprocket speed sensor.

 

I have seen no sensor on my 2008 ABS model, but it's a while since I changed sprockets (Scottoiler, donchaknow).

 

 

[fixitsan]

Attached is a 2005 ABS diagram in a Word document.

TDM900A wiring 2005.doc

 

Items 41 & 42 are the front / rear wheel sensors - at bottom right. No mention of a sprocket speed sensor.

 

I have seen no sensor on my 2008 ABS model, but it's a while since I changed sprockets (Scottoiler, donchaknow).

 

 

Thanks for that Steve.

 

The ABS version has the same wire to the ECU as non-ABS models

 

I'm wondering why the ECU would need to know when the bike is in neutral, as the ECU only controls the engine and not the idiot lights. So I'ld like to hope that simply splitting the wire to the ECU and grounding out the ECU side of it will do no more than cancel any  'bike is in neutral gear' associated functions, and hopefully they're performance related !

Edited by fixitsan, 26 September 2024 - 06:15 am.

[Snowbird]

It may knock out the sidestand switch function if ecu thinks it's in neutral, could be rerouted via kill switch though.

[Boosh]

 

It works !

 

Fuel cut is active at all times when the back wheel is turning, but, when the neutral switch wire is grounded it doesn't happen at all.

 

Thats saved me hours of work ! (But I wonder if there are any other performance limits or fuel limits which are active when in neutral ? Testing will tell)

 

That's great!

 

I've been using my bike with the neutral-indicator-indicates-sixth-gear modification for about 10 years. I've not noticed any change in running at all, but being sixth gear, the fuel cutoff disablement isn't very evident either!

 

But I don't do many miles on the bike to notice very subtle changes. (Bike is a 2002, I've owned it since 2006. Only covered 24,000 miles in total.  [Hangs head in shame.]

 

Background: This bike has usual TPS recall done, airbox flap disabling mod, and has cold-start fast-idle disabled (via attachment spring removal), as I'm happy keeping it running with the throttle when its cold. Also, CO settings have been experimented with quite a lot, via dash, presently on 28/30, was 14/16 when I bought the bike. I have the tickover set lower than recommended - about 1150 -1200rpm IIRC. This helps jerkiness on mine a little. Exhausts standard, but have tried fully-baffled MTC cans as well, runs very slightly better (for jerkiness) on MTC cans.

 

As an aside, you probably know, a relay near the fuse box is operating all the time the bike is in neutral (click is evident). Obviously it'll be in your wiring diagram somewhere.

 

In the short term, I don't need a neutral light that much, so I shall look forward to grounding the neutral switch wire (with another switched wire, so as to be able to revert) very soon, to see how it rides!

 

Maybe leave the new switch under the seat, initially.

 

 

Now, if only someone had some YSS cartridge emulators for sale cheap...

Edited by Boosh, 26 September 2024 - 08:22 am.

[fixitsan]

 

That's great!

 

I've been using my bike with the neutral-indicator-indicates-sixth-gear modification for about 10 years. I've not noticed any change in running at all, but being sixth gear, the fuel cutoff disablement isn't very evident either!

 

 

In the short term, I don't need a neutral light that much, so I shall look forward to grounding the neutral switch wire (with another switched wire, so as to be able to revert) very soon, to see how it rides!

 

Maybe leave the new switch under the seat, initially.

 

 

 

 

Grounding the neutral switch permanently,  defeat.jpg   110.73KB   0 downloads works !

 

It's as simple as removing the seat, removing the left side chicken fillet/infill panel, dig about for a blue wire joined by a bullet connector.

 

In my case I pulled out the bullet end from the connector, which goes down to the neutral switch, and made up a piece of wire from venerable green/yellow mains earth wire, with a small bullet on one end plugged into the female side of the bullet in the harness(blue wire), and an eye terminal at the other screwed to the battery negative terminal, 10" away.

 

A switch would be nice.

 

Although I have a power commander I don't think any of my observations would be very different with a bike lacking a Power Commander

 

My test was a total of 25miles, out and back, on the A70, called the 'Lang Whang' . It really is it's real name, and that amuses my wife, it apparently means 'bootlace', because Robert Burns actually named it that. So legend has it.

 

There's a stretch of several corners following on rapidly from one to the next, tightening and opening rapidly, while rising and falling quickly, all in a very short distance. 40 miles an hour feels quick enough.

 

While riding through them within your safe limits  you find that you're jumping between an on-off the throttle a few times quickly, in order to make progress through the turns. At 10mph less you can take them all at the same speed as the slowest one if you like, and you might as well do that because the front forks will be bouncing up and down due to fuel cut, if you try to push a bit.

 

Comparing carbs with injection, I feel carbs win out, every time, in these situations.  You can hold onto the smile, longer, when you don't have intrusive fuel cut taking over control of the front end a little bit, when 100% of fuel is cut off instantly from reaching the cylinders, just because you released the throttle only a few degrees. Carbs are best at handling this. They feel completely proportional , because they always allow fuel in during deceleration, in proportion to the amount of air being let in by the throttle valve.

 

When you release the throttle of a carb  by 5 degrees, you don't get that same intrusive feeling of 100% maximum engine braking, acting immediately.

 

I've never lost a night's sleep over it's existence, and I do usually ride with it comfortably. What I really feel about it is that I know that it could have been implemented better by the manufacturers, and instead of saving as much fuel as possible, they could have given a nod to the riding experience.

 

I think that saving 80% of fuel while possibly improving safety,  with a better and more confidence inspiring rider experience, is better than trying to save all of that 100% which can be saved.

 

I nearly wrote to my MP about it

 

Anyway while riding through the section of road named by the Scottish Poet, I immediately noticed that I could use the new slight decelerations in speed to maintain more constant higher speed through the smooth bends .

 

Just going off the throttle by a little bit you get gentle deceleration, and rolling off completely gives full engine braking. Full engine braking is less effective when the neutral switch is grounded, than when the action of fuel cut is active with the neutral switch in the 'normal' position.

 

It feels better to me, that's all I can say I suppose

 

I hadn't ridden the bike for ten days prior to testing this mod, so trying to make a constructive opinion is hard, but I also think acceleration in lower gears may be improved too, but there's no way for me to check at this point

 

The neutral light is always lit, so I'm going to look at extinguishing it somehow while moving forward,

 

Very pleased it was so simple in the end

Edited by fixitsan, 29 September 2024 - 06:26 pm.

[Favs]

I am following this with great interest as the smoothing of throttle response will greatly improve the 9er.