Another Loose Sprocket Nut
#101
Posted 29 June 2008 - 10:44 pm
I only ask because mine needs chain and sprockets. The character I'm going too for the service (Mr Pig in Manchester) tells me he will only fit top quality stuff. But it sounds like it might be best if I make sure he uses a genuine front sprocket and the Loctite - though this will doubtless generate one of his pithy remarks!
I'm guessing the Yam C&S kit isn't cheap and am I right in thinking it's not an x-ring chain?
Slarty
(My grandmother is now for sale to pay for the service!)
#102
Posted 29 June 2008 - 11:16 pm
I only ask because mine needs chain and sprockets. The character I'm going too for the service (Mr Pig in Manchester) tells me he will only fit top quality stuff. But it sounds like it might be best if I make sure he uses a genuine front sprocket and the Loctite - though this will doubtless generate one of his pithy remarks!
I'm guessing the Yam C&S kit isn't cheap and am I right in thinking it's not an x-ring chain?
Slarty
(My grandmother is now for sale to pay for the service!)
I've run JT sprox and loctited the nut fer years and never had a problem
Lem
Mk1black ()60+k,micron system, nice but not naughty,k&n,dynojet stage 1. port job, polished head and pistons . lowered h/bars.lowered yokes 7mm ish ,Avon Storms ,top bannanas!EBC DISCs and damned fine they are too!!!..rust an all...oh and a cracked frame.Now welded up and so far so good .....Mk1 with squire sidecar sidecar,metmachex deep brace swing arm, suzuki 6" rim &car tyre , whole plot lowered a bit.sidecar heater to keep madam cosy! LL forks coming to a bike near me soon.
#103
Posted 30 June 2008 - 02:38 am
Lem
that good to know as it restores my faith in JT sprox kits. But why were you loctit'n the nut in the first place, cos it kept coming loose or were you just using the belt and braces approach ???
spyball alarm/immob, bluespot brake calipers and Stainless hoses, Fournales air adjustable shock with Remote Resevoir, forks raised 10mm thru yokes, racetech linear fork springs in 15 wt oil, Kappa wingrack/luggage, heated grips, Kedo handguards, dual heat controller to power heated jacket liner and or pants!!, Stebel 136DB horn, K&N air filter, colour matched Baglux tank cover (magnetic tank bag modified to fit cover), osram +50% headloight bulbs, headlight protector,"NitramSpecial" parking loight, tail light indicators all running on LED's & incorporate "Lite Buddies", MK7 Scottoiler fitted, taller screen, 2-2 stainless steel CCC's, Devil stainless down pipes. MKI Renntec engine crash bars & sump guard.
engine changed july 2007 on a dyno run it made 79.1BHP / Torque 59.9Had a brief flirtation with a 1999 MKIIa but it blew an exaust valve on the M5 so was sold on to be repaired.
I loike tay and hang sangwiches !
www.kenhogantreeservices.co.uk
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#104
Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:23 am
yammie front sprocket
did x/o ring chain
after market rear sprocket
dont buy all yammie, not needed
i also wouldnt spend the extra on x-ring, o-ring is more than enough
"Never argue with an idiot. They just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
My TDM :
Black 1991 850 MK1, 160k+ miles(ish, best guess really, gave up trying to keep count after 3rd set of clocks and 3rd engine), PilotRoad2 tyres, custom stubby exhaust system, bluespot calipers & goodridge braided hoses with dunlopads, maxton forks, Ohlins shock, kedo handguards, stainless TDM grill, Scottoiler with lubetube & dual nozzle thingy, Givi Wingrack2 with E45 & 2xE36s, renntec crash bars, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider2, Optimate IIIsp, Bagster tank cover, anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led spotlights, heated grips, new braided lines and rear caliper that actually has bleed nipples
Silver-ish 2003 900, 70k miles, PilotRoad3 front tyre (new@65k) & PR2 rear(new at 69k), Renthal 755 bars with KTM handguards, oxford unheated grips, power commander 3usb, scorpion titanium exhausts, standard screen with vario winglet thingy, stainless grill, oem centre stand, bagster tank cover, givi monokey topplate mounted on grabrail with V46 topbox, Givi PL pannier rails with E21s, crash bungs, mirror extender thingys, Halfords Advanced Laser Blue brillance bulbs, 21w led spotlights, touring scottoiler with leehenty dual nozzle, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider3 Urban, winter style anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led brake light strip, replacement heated grips
current rides : TDM850 3vd/mk1=tourer&scratcher, TRX850=weekend twisty toy, 2003 TDM900=commuter, 2005 TDM900=unmolested. Gone but not forgotton : XTZ750=overland touring toy, GS500e, GS125
If a strange looking truck driver honks at you & gives you the thumbs up, its could be me
#105
Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:57 pm
spyball alarm/immob, bluespot brake calipers and Stainless hoses, Fournales air adjustable shock with Remote Resevoir, forks raised 10mm thru yokes, racetech linear fork springs in 15 wt oil, Kappa wingrack/luggage, heated grips, Kedo handguards, dual heat controller to power heated jacket liner and or pants!!, Stebel 136DB horn, K&N air filter, colour matched Baglux tank cover (magnetic tank bag modified to fit cover), osram +50% headloight bulbs, headlight protector,"NitramSpecial" parking loight, tail light indicators all running on LED's & incorporate "Lite Buddies", MK7 Scottoiler fitted, taller screen, 2-2 stainless steel CCC's, Devil stainless down pipes. MKI Renntec engine crash bars & sump guard.
engine changed july 2007 on a dyno run it made 79.1BHP / Torque 59.9Had a brief flirtation with a 1999 MKIIa but it blew an exaust valve on the M5 so was sold on to be repaired.
I loike tay and hang sangwiches !
www.kenhogantreeservices.co.uk
http://s33.photobuck...77/wickla/?sc=6
http://reg.imageshack.us/v_images.php
#106
Posted 30 June 2008 - 06:13 pm
old habit picked up from running and working on brit bikes! they have tab washers too but nuts still loosen off,I guess its a mistrust off tab washers.
Mk1black ()60+k,micron system, nice but not naughty,k&n,dynojet stage 1. port job, polished head and pistons . lowered h/bars.lowered yokes 7mm ish ,Avon Storms ,top bannanas!EBC DISCs and damned fine they are too!!!..rust an all...oh and a cracked frame.Now welded up and so far so good .....Mk1 with squire sidecar sidecar,metmachex deep brace swing arm, suzuki 6" rim &car tyre , whole plot lowered a bit.sidecar heater to keep madam cosy! LL forks coming to a bike near me soon.
#107
Posted 04 July 2008 - 11:44 pm
Always correclty torqued, so guess it hasnt moved on the threads and that something else has moved!
Since I am totally certain of the correct torque being applied, this seems like the only possible explanation given that the nut (though loose) has not moved on the threads!
Have got new AFAM sprock and nut/tab to fit and will mark everything so in the unlikely event of anything moving with the Loctite 638 oi will know what it were!
If you want to mark your location on the Carpe map: http://www.carpe-tdm...opic.php?t=5117
Doin valve clearances? Use dappers valve shim exchange program and the job will be carroty - Free (other than you postin me yer shims) for sporting members.
Active member of TPLQHCSRSFC and TSRMCMAS (even though a year off) and avid fan of PM not sent.
#108
Posted 05 July 2008 - 07:03 am
Yamaha and AFAM (old and new) are a much better fit on the splines than the troublesome one that I have just removed. There is no difference between the Yam and AFAM on my splines....so I'll be paying £9 a go rather than £45!
Sprock is now loctited on.....hope I put enough on.
If you want to mark your location on the Carpe map: http://www.carpe-tdm...opic.php?t=5117
Doin valve clearances? Use dappers valve shim exchange program and the job will be carroty - Free (other than you postin me yer shims) for sporting members.
Active member of TPLQHCSRSFC and TSRMCMAS (even though a year off) and avid fan of PM not sent.
#109 Guest_GuyGraham_*
Posted 05 July 2008 - 09:29 am
Yamaha and AFAM (old and new) are a much better fit on the splines than the troublesome one that I have just removed. There is no difference between the Yam and AFAM on my splines....so I'll be paying £9 a go rather than £45!
Sprock is now loctited on.....hope I put enough on.
It really don't need alot - just enough to fill in the gaps between the splines on the shaft and the sporcket, which is only a very small gap 0.1-0.2mm max
the DRZ boys (where the fix originated) say only 3 drops on the output shaft required
I put a drop in each valley of the splines on the shaft, and a drop in each valley of the splines in the sprocket, and assemble
Too much and you risk pushing it under the output shaft oil seal spacer, and loctiting that in place!!!!
3 times I have change the sprocket on me DRZ and each time it has required the 3 legged puller to get it off.
Its good stuff I tell you
You just need to make sure its spotlessly clean
Use contact cleaner to remove any oil/chain lube etc and fine wet & dry to remove any rust, they contact cleaner again.
#110
Posted 05 July 2008 - 09:34 am
A manufacturer that's proud of their product will put a name on it!
Yamaha and AFAM (old and new) are a much better fit on the splines than the troublesome one that I have just removed. There is no difference between the Yam and AFAM on my splines....so I'll be paying £9 a go rather than £45!
You will have , I find spreading it on with my fingers so it just coats t' freds on't nut n shaft usually works.
Edited by lemonentrails, 05 July 2008 - 09:37 am.
Mk1black ()60+k,micron system, nice but not naughty,k&n,dynojet stage 1. port job, polished head and pistons . lowered h/bars.lowered yokes 7mm ish ,Avon Storms ,top bannanas!EBC DISCs and damned fine they are too!!!..rust an all...oh and a cracked frame.Now welded up and so far so good .....Mk1 with squire sidecar sidecar,metmachex deep brace swing arm, suzuki 6" rim &car tyre , whole plot lowered a bit.sidecar heater to keep madam cosy! LL forks coming to a bike near me soon.
#111 Guest_GuyGraham_*
Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:15 am
Not required on the threads - tab washer will hold nut in place
Re-read this thread
Loose sprocket syndrome has nothing to do with the nut coming undone, as the nut doesn't move
#112
Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:19 am
Re-read this thread
Loose sprocket syndrome has nothing to do with the nut coming undone, as the nut doesn't move
I dont agree with your assumptions,so will keep loctiting the nut only and continue to have a tight sprocket!
Mk1black ()60+k,micron system, nice but not naughty,k&n,dynojet stage 1. port job, polished head and pistons . lowered h/bars.lowered yokes 7mm ish ,Avon Storms ,top bannanas!EBC DISCs and damned fine they are too!!!..rust an all...oh and a cracked frame.Now welded up and so far so good .....Mk1 with squire sidecar sidecar,metmachex deep brace swing arm, suzuki 6" rim &car tyre , whole plot lowered a bit.sidecar heater to keep madam cosy! LL forks coming to a bike near me soon.
#113
Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:26 am
How do you explain a 'loose' nut that it still tabbed to a shaft? I can't see another way for this to happen.
If you want to mark your location on the Carpe map: http://www.carpe-tdm...opic.php?t=5117
Doin valve clearances? Use dappers valve shim exchange program and the job will be carroty - Free (other than you postin me yer shims) for sporting members.
Active member of TPLQHCSRSFC and TSRMCMAS (even though a year off) and avid fan of PM not sent.
#114 Guest_GuyGraham_*
Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:32 am
you haven't understood the problem
i stress again re-read this thread, and do a search about it
The nut doesn't come undone - its a loss of clamping pressure which gives the impression of the nut having come undo, but it hasn't actually moved
You carry on loctiting the nut only - Your bike, your choice.
Edited by GuyGraham, 05 July 2008 - 10:33 am.
#115
Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:55 am
This is what i think/know/summise having seen the same problem on many other bikes using this method of locking
The constant back and forth shocks from the drive train loading and unloading (a bit like the way an air impact wrench works) causes the tab's splines to wear a minute amount which builds up over time to the point where loosening the nut is inevitable. Have a close look at an old tab whasher. Agreed if the nut is torqued up to the correct torque using perfect threads this is less likely to happen. But how often is this the case in the real world where access to torque wrenches is not always available and the ability to lock the shaft well enough so the required torque can be applied is not there.
Just my thoughts and experience of working with bikes for 20 odd years.
Mk1black ()60+k,micron system, nice but not naughty,k&n,dynojet stage 1. port job, polished head and pistons . lowered h/bars.lowered yokes 7mm ish ,Avon Storms ,top bannanas!EBC DISCs and damned fine they are too!!!..rust an all...oh and a cracked frame.Now welded up and so far so good .....Mk1 with squire sidecar sidecar,metmachex deep brace swing arm, suzuki 6" rim &car tyre , whole plot lowered a bit.sidecar heater to keep madam cosy! LL forks coming to a bike near me soon.
#116
Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:16 pm
Booger shoulda compared to the newy before install. The oldy doesn't look worn, but its zummat I hadn't thought about and we are only talkin bout a tiny change to cause this looseyness. I put normal loctite on tut nut too so hopefully whatever the cause is, it will not occur!
If you want to mark your location on the Carpe map: http://www.carpe-tdm...opic.php?t=5117
Doin valve clearances? Use dappers valve shim exchange program and the job will be carroty - Free (other than you postin me yer shims) for sporting members.
Active member of TPLQHCSRSFC and TSRMCMAS (even though a year off) and avid fan of PM not sent.
#117
Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:27 pm
sure is!
been doin it fer 14 yrs of tdm ownership and on other bikes and it works fer me!
Mk1black ()60+k,micron system, nice but not naughty,k&n,dynojet stage 1. port job, polished head and pistons . lowered h/bars.lowered yokes 7mm ish ,Avon Storms ,top bannanas!EBC DISCs and damned fine they are too!!!..rust an all...oh and a cracked frame.Now welded up and so far so good .....Mk1 with squire sidecar sidecar,metmachex deep brace swing arm, suzuki 6" rim &car tyre , whole plot lowered a bit.sidecar heater to keep madam cosy! LL forks coming to a bike near me soon.
#118 Guest_GuyGraham_*
Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:46 pm
You see the 2nd gear bushing (part of group of items labeled as '15'
when you torque up the nut, it clamps against the sprocket, which clamps against the oil seal spacer, which clamps against the bearing inner race, which clamps against the second gear bushing, which clamps against the shoulder on the outputshaft and hence everything is clamped up tight
The constant back and forth shocks as lemonentrails quite rightly points out from the acceleration and deceleration, makes the sprocket rock back and forth. Where lemonentrials is wrong is assuming this wear takes place in the splines and loosens the nut
This is the second gear bushing from my DRZ400S, which has the same transmission set up, and also suffers from loosening front sprockets. Mine came loose twice, despite being torqued to the correct figure of 70Nm
See that groove on the outer face, thats where the inner race of the bearing clamps against it, and when tight, spins with the bearing and shaft.
As the bearing is harder than the bushing, the bushing wears, and hence causes the loss of clamping press without the nut ever actually moving.
Now, it may be the second gear bushing that wears on the TDM, or it maybe something else, as I have not examined the parts from a bike on which the sprocket has been loose, but the key to stopping the wear, and hence stopping the loose sprocket is to stop the sprocket from rocking back and forth.
The pressure applied by the sprocket nut is not enough to do this, else they wouldn't come 'loose'. This is why you need the loctite on the splines, to prevent this movement.
Ordinary blue thread lock, or Loctite Stud'n'Bearing (red) is not strong enough (I know, it failed to do the job twice on my DRZ) , but Locitie 638 most certainly is
Edited by GuyGraham, 05 July 2008 - 05:40 pm.
#119 Guest_GuyGraham_*
Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:53 pm
been doin it fer 14 yrs of tdm ownership and on other bikes and it works fer me!
Not all other bike have this set up
Many bikes have the shoulder on the output shaft directly behind the the gearbox sprocket bearing and hence the 2nd gear bushing is isolating from the pressure / rocking movement - these bikes never have the sprocket come 'loose'
I glad its never come loose for you in 14 years, but there are quite a few on here, for whom they have, and for some of those it has trashed their output shaft.
#120
Posted 05 July 2008 - 01:39 pm
Aided by shitey fitting aftermarket sprocks. My bike has never had any looseyness until I fitted the unbranded bugger.
I will strip doon one of me garden ornaments at some point and see if there is any wear to any of the components atween the clamping faces on the shaft.
If you want to mark your location on the Carpe map: http://www.carpe-tdm...opic.php?t=5117
Doin valve clearances? Use dappers valve shim exchange program and the job will be carroty - Free (other than you postin me yer shims) for sporting members.
Active member of TPLQHCSRSFC and TSRMCMAS (even though a year off) and avid fan of PM not sent.
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